Calls for WiFi safety inquiry to be carried out in UK

The UK paper The Independent on Sunday has been thinking of the children recently with a headline article today proclaiming that children are at risk from WiFi signals, or what it sensationally calls "electronic smog." Their motivation for putting WiFi into an almost satanic light are calls by the UK Health Protection Agency to hold an investigation into the safety of WiFi signals. That's fair enough: even if most of the mania surrounding the safety (or lack thereof) of wireless networks is unjustified, an inquiry should put the record straight, right? Still, when another of the bodies that is calling for the inquiry -- the Department of Education and Skills -- calls wireless area networks "magical," it gives the increasing panic over WiFi a rather depressing perspective. Why exactly children are being used to justify an inquiry is a question that needs to be answered too, since the number of homes and workplaces equipped with WiFi must surely outnumber primary and secondary schools. That's before you factor in the prevalence of cordless phones and an array of other wireless kit in the home, which operate on the same 2.4GHz frequency that the majority of routers do. Unfortunately, our expectation is that an inquiry will lead to the same kind of back and forth arguments about the safety of mobile phones and their masts, and not any kind of clarity over this almost manufactured controversy. It certainly doesn't help for WiFi to be branded a "radiation threat" before an inquiry has even been agreed upon.

[kingofwale @ Apr 22nd 2007 3:42PM]

I bet Tomorrow's headline is. "Millions die from oxygen smog in the air"

[syadasti @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:01PM]

They'll have to start with the older or bigger offenders first. These hypochondriac idiots in the UK claim they are sensitive to/sick/allergic from EMF from modern electronics. Modern electronics are far more efficient than they use to be and they have to certified not to output high levels/cause interference not to mention the EMF follow inverse square law so the amount of radiation actually affecting any given person is barely measurable unless you are right on top of the transmitter. Good old fashion TV/radio station transmitters, CB radios, shortwave, cordless phones, microwaves, common household electric motors, CRT TVs, etc what about those? Where are those investigations and why didn't these idiots complain about those devices decades ago? Time to ban mommy's air dryer - you are killing your kid:p

[stitifier @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:07PM]

As long as new technology continues to be developed, there will always be idiots willing to believe that it hurts them somehow, philistines willing to believe that it's magic, and connivers willing to deprive them of their money.

[Rummy @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:10PM]

That's what happens when we have alarmists for politicians and beauraucrats. It seems no country is immune to idiots, be it the US or UK.

[matt @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:13PM]

Firstly syadasti, anything said by the independent should be taken with a pinch of salt. They are well known over here for being very over the top with their stories, especially the headlines. That is a typical indie headline. Second, i think your views on the UK being a country of "hypochondriac idiots" is very stereotypical, even i found the woman that claimed she is allergic to technology funny because she is clearly out to grab a slice of fame (of sorts). So you might want to rethink your views because anyone else is the world can be just as strereotypical about America.

[FatBurger @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:15PM]

If you play WiFi signals backward, they say "Worship Satan, kill babies!" Plus, I'm pretty sure that WiFi is reason I'm so ugly.

[JP @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:16PM]

Funnily, Micro$oft writes in the manual of the Xbox 360 >>> HEADSET

[JP @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:19PM]

that you may not put it closer than 20 cm to any person, when active, otherwhise it won't be save anymore…!

[Gavin @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:32PM]

I have a 2.5 Meter satellite dish outside my house and I live next to a school. Doesn't that make me more dangerous and more radioactive that measly wifi?

[MikeStan @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:35PM]

I don't know if anyone else has come up against this but I hear CRTs when they're on (and can differetiate between what they're displaying) and certain noises make me go mad and feel sick (particularly metal on another hard surface i.e. a knife hitting something when it's dropped).

It drives me completely up the wall for no real reason & I wonder if people really are hearing WiFi & the various other noises from modern tech.

anyone got any theories? (sp?)

Mike.

[BowserUSC @ Apr 22nd 2007 7:48PM]

Sorry to say you're not special. It's just a certain frequency sound being emitted by the tv that you can hear, not all people can hear that range, I can. It's a lot like that mosquito frequency that the KFC commercials use to try and capture childrens attention. (Honestly that commercial pisses me off so much, its so annoying hearing that buzz that I've vowed to never eat KFC again.)

[Joe @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:36PM]

I have a Apple Airport extreme in my bedroom and one day I woke up green.

[Big @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:41PM]

2.5 GHz is the frequency used by XBOX 360 for wireless accessories/ the majority of household cordless phones that cost more than $50 and many other products.

I cannot completely discount the validity of claims that GHz radio frequencies are dangerous to humanity simply because there isn't enough research or conclusive studies to help verify the claims.

My old GeoPhysics proffesor claimed that there is a possibility that high frequency radio signals can accelerate/excite or change the oxidation rates of small particles/chemicals in the human body.


Of course, the truth is, we are basically immersed constantly in every frequency of the Electromagnetic Spectrum 24/7 - making a case that 2.4 GHz is worse than all others is going to be tough.

[David Gurney @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:41PM]

This B.S. makes me ashamed to be British.

[kingofwale @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:42PM]

>It drives me completely up the wall for no real reason & I wonder if people really are hearing WiFi & the various other noises from modern tech.


maybe just a normal case of PMSing? ;)

You can't hear Wifi. I HAVE NO idea why people even come up with this crap, you can only hear a certain range of frequency. just like you can't see gamma ray because you can only see the frequency in the visible light spectrum.

Seriously, what's next? you tell me you can levitate or hear people's thoughts?

[CaptSaltyJack @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:50PM]

Children are always exploited by the media and by politicians as a means to manipulate people and get them to pay attention to some moron's blather in the hopes of gaining support for useless witch hunts that waste tax payers' dollars. This shit disgusts me to no end.

Besides. The Department of Education and Skills refers to wi-fi as "magical"?! What is this, the world of Harry Potter or something? (well, this IS in the UK..) How credible can they be with such a display of ignorance?

Now excuse me while I go kill my neighbors. The evil wi-fi told me to do it.

[Porkchop Flavored Cupcake @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:51PM]

If genuine concerns are raised on any issue regarding the health and well-being of any person or group of people, then please allow them look into the matter.
I don't care if it's fluoridation of drinking water, the air at Ground Zero in NYC, or the laptops blowing up before our eyes, just look into it.
It seems to me that the only alarmists here are the same people who are spewing childish insults at those people who are merely trying to ensure the safety of the people around them.
Let them look into it.

[DerekPowell @ Apr 22nd 2007 4:58PM]

@mikestan:

It's quite possible that the CRT TVs you can hear are actually making a sound, perhaps one outside the frequency range of normal hearing. My Tv makes all kinds of noises anyone can hear when you turn it on, they stop after bit though. Also, if you've ever degaused a monitor or tv, there's a distinct sound that occurs as it happens as well.

As for feelign sick about some noises, maybe you have aspergers. or maybe knife on concrete, is just your nails on chalkboard. Maybe you can hear some frequencies (extremely high and irritating?) occuring in that type of situation that others can't.

[KirbyMeister @ Apr 22nd 2007 5:11PM]

Here's some headlines from the same issue:

"Wi-Fi causes kid to jump off building and then send prank e-mails to classmates"
"The God In The Internet Is Dead"
"Wi-Fi threatens to activate collective subconcious"

Sounds like I'm not the only one that hated Serial Experiments Lain.

[gxti @ Apr 22nd 2007 5:24PM]

Don't forget "Does this Model look like a Trollop?" - high-class journalism is what The Independent is all about.

/sarcasm

[MikeStan @ Apr 22nd 2007 5:13PM]

Hi kingofwale, FYI I can't hear WiFi but I have read stories of people alleging they can.

My question was about the fact that I hear things that shouldn't be making noise (CRT displays particularly although other things are also audible to me).

Thanks DerekPowell, I didn't realise that aspergers was called that if you see what i mean. However I've just re-read J-Pod so I may just be a hypoconriac. (again sp?)

Thanks though.

Mike.

[Ayle @ Apr 23rd 2007 12:39AM]

2.4 ghz = 2 400 000 000 hz and human can only hear from 20 to 22000( approx.) so no matter what you cant hear the wifi and other devices using the ghz band.... The crt whine is in the 15 khz range so its normal people can hear it....

[falk3r @ Apr 22nd 2007 5:31PM]

Warning: Everything with a temperature of greater than 0 K emits radiation. That is to say, EVERYTHING EVER emits (some amount of) radiation.

ZOMG, the CHILDREN themselves are emitting radiation and I think it is harming their own health. They must be stopped.

[Ben @ Apr 22nd 2007 5:57PM]

This argument doesn't really work. It is the amount of radiation that may (or may well not) be critical. As human beings we are quite finely adjusted to our environments. Yes background radiation is a constant, but how do you know for sure that a 15% increase in radiation levels won't cause some health problem if we are exposed to it over decades?

[kingofwale @ Apr 22nd 2007 5:40PM]

>My question was about the fact that I hear things that shouldn't be making noise (CRT displays particularly although other things are also audible to me).

first of all, if people tell you they can hear WiFI. they are lying, it's like saying people can speak dog language or tell your fortune. They just can't.

and the noise you hear isn't the TV rays. you can't hear photon (lights). what you hear is the electronic noise from within the tv.

[Ben @ Apr 22nd 2007 5:58PM]

I use wireless all the time, but instinctively I would not put my router next to my bed and leave it on all night. Yes background radiation is there all the time, but the real answer is that we just don't know whether or not a (perhaps small) increase in radiation from wireless devices could have health implications if we are exposed to it for decades. People who say 'it certainly can't affect us' are either strangely omniscient, or just reacting emotionally against the 'wireless scare' argument.

What kind of tests do the authorities do before they approve a new technology or drug? I'm sure they do a fairly good assessment. But it is worth bearing in mind that they cannot test these things for the length of time that we will be exposed to them, which could be 50 years or more on a daily basis. They may be able to ESTIMATE the effect of this, but relating the size and duration of dose on the human body to effect is still not a precise mathematical science.

It always seems slightly strange to me that you would have to prove that something is harmful before you ban it, rather than the other way around. On the other hand, if we didn't take any risks I guess we might still be back in the stone age.

[RickJoe @ Apr 22nd 2007 5:59PM]

You have to take a look at where this article is coming from. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being to the left, but the UK Independent is an ultra ultra left wing paper. It persistently takes the conspiracy theory, anti-establishment, anti-government viewpoint. Its articles are also sweepingly suspicious of any organized body. Unfortunately, coupled on top of this, its articles also often leave out facts, are disingenuous and are not "independent" in their balance, contrary to the paper's name.

It is therefore quite consistent with their publication style to make WiFi look like a child-killing evil government-sponsored technology.

[MikeStan @ Apr 22nd 2007 6:02PM]

Sorry kingofwale, maybe I wasn't clear. I have READ stories of people hearing WiFi etc. Not experienced it myself.

And as far as these magical "Photons" are concerned you are preaching to the converted, I've worked for over 10 years in post production and am familiar with the tech involved with image display.

(again) I asked the question because I'm curious about why I can hear things that others don't appear to. I'd like to hear other peoples hypothesese (again spelling not my strong point) about this from merely an intellectual POV, not a scientific one.

Why do you think that some noises make me feel sick and I can hear the difference betweern (for instance) a CRT displaying 100% bars and anything else when technically it should be outside of human hearing?

[Nadra @ Apr 22nd 2007 6:28PM]

Regarding your hearing sounds from the television: when some electronic components are subjected to AC-currents, they tend to vibrate. These vibrations are audible, if you have good hearing. As people age we typically loose the ability to hear high-frequency sounds, such as emitted from a TV. Your comments indicate that you still have very good heaing, both in ability to hear faint sounds, and in frequency range: Take good care of that!

[Zorque @ Apr 22nd 2007 6:08PM]

I guess Utah just doesn't want us to get sick!

[Raia @ Apr 22nd 2007 6:12PM]

It is true. WiFi, cordless phones, BT headsets are all harmful to humans and animals (some are a lot more sensitive than other.) As a matter of fact, when AM radio was first broadcast, there were many cases of people becoming ill due to their transmission. In order to help, we'd have to do away with most radio transmission (which is never gonna happen, obv.) Where were these people in the 80's when we started using cordless? Now these techs are too much a part of our lifestyle to do anything about. Most of all, singeing out WiFi is retarded.

(do primary/secondary schools really have WiFi? That doesnt seem to productive anyway, does it?)

[MikeStan @ Apr 22nd 2007 6:34PM]

Thanks, it's 10 years of 1Khz tone i suspect.

[Chuckles McGee @ Apr 22nd 2007 7:01PM]

Really, a Wi-Fi receiver's only "threat" is just RF radiation- much much less than even a cell phone at that. Maybe the towers put out as much RF as the cell phone towers, but still, hardly anything to get concerned about, especially since low levels of RF have basically no confirmed detrimental effects.

People love to worry about magical dangers than might possibly have the eensy-weensy chance of killing them down the line while ignoring the big dangers. Chances are, talking on your cell phone while driving is so much more likely to get you killed than any RF radiation, eating that Big Mac is far more likely to kill you than the aspartame in your Coke.

[VuckFista @ Apr 22nd 2007 7:09PM]

this really isn't complicated, heres a site that explains the difference between Sound and RF waves:

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/waves/wavemotion.html

sound is Longitudinal and RF is Transverse
this is why you can have sound compressions like sonic booms and also why ambulances are louder as they approach

this means that it is impossible to hear RF
what you can hear is the sound of the capacitors squealing when current passes though them and causes them to vibrate.

vibration makes sound.
electromagnetism makes RF.

as for it being damaging, the 50,000 watt radio stations all around us are putting out far more power than any wireless router does, even with after market firmware
same as cellphones and cordless phones

wifi is just as safe as anything else and probably more so as the transmit power is only rated in milliwatts.

now how do i ask the government for 6 million dollars so i can tell them this same thing?

[William @ Apr 22nd 2007 7:23PM]

Just another typically rubbish news report that we have to put up with in Blighty (UK). And the independent isn't even a gutter rag tabloid.

Its pretty depressing but it highlights the tendency in this country to overblow everything and use a supposed notion of caring for children as the excuse to sensationalise everything to appeal to their text-messaging, phone-in voting readers,

[KWillets @ Apr 22nd 2007 7:38PM]

I hear things too from electronics. My ibook is making a slight buzz when I plug in the charger. Somehow I doubt it's RF, more like bulk vibration due to 60-80 watts switching on and off. CRT noises aren't hard to explain either; any change in output entails changes in current shooting at the screen, and possibly thermal changes as phosphors heat up suddenly.

As far as the 2.4 GHz issue, somebody over on fark posted a graph of the EM spectrum in his house; the spike from a microwave oven is some 1000 times higher than the wifi one.

[TJ @ Apr 22nd 2007 7:38PM]

The disease is called NAS* (Nerve Attenuation Syndrome), a.k.a. the black shakes. Hahahaha





*Comes from the movie Johnny Mnemonic

[Grant @ Apr 22nd 2007 7:59PM]

Maybe, just maybe, the people hearings wifi just have really shitting routers, and they and poorly made with components that have the high frequency power buzz that many other electronics have. any electronic that has a capacitor in it can be heard when it's charging, just listen to any camera with a flash after you take the picture.

[Josh Rodriguez @ Apr 22nd 2007 10:10PM]

I'm sure Wi-Fi kills puppies and kitten, too.

[Max @ Apr 22nd 2007 10:15PM]

This is stupid has like when people where saying that cellphones cause cancer...

[Danger @ Apr 22nd 2007 10:28PM]

Can't believe this is even an issue, what are they going to attempt to block next, air?

http://www.BurnedByTheMan.com

[Luke @ Apr 22nd 2007 10:29PM]

These are the same clowns that call C02 a "pollutant." Once again, science and reason take a back seat to political causes and control.

[Phoenix Enigma @ Apr 23rd 2007 12:00AM]

This is starting (well, we may be past starting) to become ridiculous. Yes, maybe people can hear CRTs (someone once explained it was something to due with the kHz range scan rate, which does seem to fit). Maybe that can drive you nuts. But hearing an EM signal at 2.4Ghz? Not a chance. This is a drop in the bucket compared to even the energy you absorb from the sun shining in your office window, or from a walkie talkie. If you want to live in a lead box you're whole life, fine, but there's no reason to.

Sorry, make that ancient lead, fresh stuff is still somewhat radioactive :P

[bobdole @ Apr 23rd 2007 12:24AM]

an average wifi hotspot transmits at a few dozen MILLIwatts and is located in a closet...
an average cellphone transmits several WATTS, and is located half an inch from your brain.

besides being electromagnetic rather than audio waves, human hearing cuts off at a few dozen KILOhertz... wifi is 2.4 GIGAhertz.. anyone who claims to be able to hear wifi is a nutjob.

[LC @ Apr 23rd 2007 12:57AM]

I hear sounds from my television and my iPod all the time. Even stranger, when I press the "+" where it says "vol" on my remote control the sounds get even louder. When I hit "Mute" all sound stops completely.

On a serious note I have the George Carlin philosophy about this:

“…And what’s all this shit
about children nowadays?
‘Save the children!’
‘Help the children!’
‘What about the children?’
Well you know what I say?
FUCK the children!
Fuck ‘em!
They get entirely too much attention already.”

[Casper van Heck @ Apr 23rd 2007 3:41AM]

Radiation, is a word which lures out the word 'cancer'. This, while most forms of radiation don't cause cancer.
The first step in getting cancer is making a small molecule (like water) lose an electron (by adding a packet of energy, like gamma radiation), which will make it break up into H+ and OH-. The latter will react with the DNA, causing mutation. Most of these mutations are corrected by certain proteins (like p53), and will have no effect. Of those very few that are not corrected, a lot are benevolent, and will never trouble you again. Also, a lot cells that have mutated will have a defect and will simply die.
Very, very few of the mentioned very few will actually produce cancer, which can be benevolent. Some are agressive, and it's those we're talking about. So, altough a lot people think so radiation DOES NOT ALWAYS cause cancer, it increases the possibility to get cancer.

But for this all to happen, first a packet of energy has to 'exite' an electron. Looking to the electrons, and the energy they need to get exited, and comparing that to the electromagnetic spectrum, we find that the radiation with energy of more than 10^2 eV (we're talking about very, very small packets of energy here) has enough energy to produce cancer. The radiation forms we're talking about are ultraviolet, rontgen, gamma-radiation, cosmic radiation, etc.
Again looking to the electromagnetic spectrum, we see that all radio waves, including wifi, bluetooth, and the frequency where mobile phones work on, just like visible light and infrared (yes, your remote control), have much, much less energy (ranging from a factor of 10 to 10^14). The energy released by these packets is way to small to cause any kind of cancer.
(Note: sunlight can cause cancer, but that is because of the ultraviolet part in it.)

Please read this post before posting more 'we will all get cancer from mobile phones' nonsense.

[declan @ Apr 23rd 2007 6:15AM]

I like The Independent newspaper but I'm well aware that their front page is often sensational but not in a bad tabloid way. They just like to highlight issues like the Middle East, climate change, politics and health risks in an in your face manner. Interesting read just very passionate.

[treetrunk @ Apr 23rd 2007 8:07AM]

How can people relate this to "hearing electronics"? Of course you can hear some electronic devices- they make noises! There's nothing "magic" about the high-pitched oscillator frequency some can hear from CRT tubes just because there's a CRT tube involved - something is oscillating and making a noise in doing so, so if you've got good ears you can hear it. It's just a NOISE, you hear it with your EARS, not some magic "electronic sensitivity" or other gubbins.

[Chris Parsons @ Apr 23rd 2007 9:23AM]

I'd just like to add that the reason that "children are being used to justify an inquiry" could be as their brains and skulls are very different to that of adults. While a childs head is growing, before their skull fuses and increases in thickness, they are more vunerable to certain types of radiation. Whether or not this is correct in this case I have no idea but it could well be a legitamate reason...I certainly believe that while the Independant is certainly sensationalist, there is the basis for an enquiry into Wifi safety. It is known that a lot of new technology is a risk to your health, these enquiries are necessary to help clarify the risks to the public. Can we try and keep insults out of these comments pages and just debate the issue sensibly?

[Silverfrog @ Apr 23rd 2007 9:41AM]

We're getting far more EM radiation from electric lines in our house than we are from cellphone and wifi network transmissions. Oh, and let's not forget the sun, which produces more radation than any of these sources.